If you’re looking for a post about mouthwash, move on. This is about the fresh mouth and attitude that L has developed. He thinks nothing of talking back and saying things like “Stupid Mommy” and “I hate you!” This drives me nuts! I realize how little control I actually have. I can’t make him stop saying this stuff. All I can do is give him consequences, talk to him about how it’s not OK to say such things, and hope he makes better choices in the future. Which, so far, he has not chosen to do.
All you pro-spankers out there are getting excited to tell me to spank him, right? I honestly don’t think that would be an effective punishment for him. He’s the first one to point out if I chastise him for something I do myself. You know how I pinched him the other day? Well, he’s reminded me of it several times with comments like, “Since Mommy pinched me, it’s OK to pinch people.” When I explain the difference between me and him, that my pinch was meant to teach him something etc, I get “Well, I can only pinch someone if they do something bad first.” I just don’t need to go there with hitting.
So, what to do? Just wait it out and hope that he one day develops the desire to respect me? Yell and scream at him like a maniac when he talks back? Ignore it?
His first reaction lately when things don’ t go his way is to call someone stupid and tell them that he hates them. So this comes up a lot.
I can feel the people out there who are thinking ‘this behavior just wouldn’t fly in my house!’ Well, why not? Because your children never tried it? Or if they did, what kind of response did they get from you to let them know they’d better not do it again?
L is not deterred by time outs, not deterred by privileges or beloved objects taken away. He’s smart enough to know that there is no real consequence – that we’ll always love him, feed him and let him live in the house. In fact, he often will infuriatingly say “But you still love me!” right in the middle of a battle.
Nothing makes me feel like a shittier mom that having my obnoxious 4-year-old show complete disrespect and disregard for me. Please tell me your kids are jerks sometimes too?
It seems you have a challenging time with this little guy. Being a new parent I really have no clue but I can, of course, make a suggestion. Don’t worry, I don’t think I know anything. What if you teach him the difference between loving him and being pleased/proud of him (or liking him). I know lots of things backfire for you so I don’t really know if this will help. Just a thought.
By the way, have you tried some of the diet changes that are helping with behavior issues? I’ve read a few articles. Don’t have a clue what you feed them so this may not even apply.
Good luck.
I haven’t tried any diet changes. He’s such a good eater, it’s like the one thing I have that he’s good at, I just don’t want to mess with it. He doesn’t seem to care too much if I’m disappointed or unhappy with him. He doesn’t like it in the moment, but it doesn’t affect his behavior in the long run.
I had my son tested for food sensitivities/allergies and he came back positive for wheat. He never had a rash or anything, but when he has wheat his behavior goes down the tubes. Since we’ve eliminated wheat, his behavior has ben MUCH better. You might take him to get tested and see what turns up. I can relate to your frustration with him! My son is a strong-willed four-year-old too, and he can be an annoying little jerk sometimes. You’re not alone.
BTW, I hugely agree with your take on spanking. I am completely convinced it would be a huge backfire for you.
reading your posts usually makes me laugh…today i want to hug you. Sounds like you have your hands full. Do know that you will eventually find a punishment that is effective. I too have a kid that did not respond to typical time outs, taking away toys or tv or games. It took me 6 years, but I finally found what works for my son….so keep at it, don’t give up, you will find something!!!
the only thing that somewhat works for us is rewards. If he can get 7 days behaving better (ie…less freakouts, whining, and tantrums, and being mean to little sister), he gets his favorite thing…a trip to get breakfast tacos on Saturday morning with just dad. He doesn’t have to be perfect just better and the days aren’t consecutive because he could never do that. We just remind him how many days he has left and he usually does better. However, he seems to be maybe mellowing out just a tad. Birthday of 2/07. I’m hoping this is him inching toward 5 when I hear is much better. (Now that I say that he’ll be horrible for me today.)
Chocolate makes my almost-5-year-old a huge jackass. Or more of a jackass than normal, I guess. And since coming off dairy (for recurring ear infections) I’ve found his behaviour has calmed down a bit. Granted, there are many days when you’d never tell the difference. But it does help. Chocolate, sugar, dairy, even gluten/wheat are triggers for him – and me. Caffeine makes me go crazy with rage. So I can’t have any. And I imagine that a small bit (in his chocolate, he doesn’t do soft drinks) would be disastrous on his little body, too.
My first/last instinct when threatened is to lash out and hit/pinch/etc back. It’s sooooo hard to rein that in when you’re trying to parent, teach a lesson and teach by example. I hate it when he looks at me, crocodile tears welling and says “Mama, say you’re sorry.” Yet, when he bites his brother or runs away into a crowded parking lot, it’s hard to stay calm and focused.
Yes they are all like that…even those moms that are in denial I think. My older son was like that, he is now 7 1/2 and I still have issues with respect. Although now he gets time outs in his room so at least I have some of my own quiet time. Mine was also a good eater but I did notice preservatives in certain foods would make him a little more off. A certain brand of frozen waffles seemed to do it, and even lunch meat. With peanut free schools and another son who ONLY eats waffles it’s hard to limit that stuff. I read super nanny and tried some of her stuff, but what I found worked more often than not was to just keep changing consequences about every three weeks. Hang in there. You are NOT alone and I do feel they are all phases, unfortunately some longer than others. :/ I recently got the book The Challenging Child about understanding the five “difficult” types of children.
Just to let you know that you are not alone…..my kid/kids do this also. If you get a great response as to how to stop it, let me know because I am not WINNING. My two older children have spent the last two nights confined to their rooms for missbehavior, I am hoping that missing out on movies and fun time will help them to realize that I am not going to take that kind of behavior. Good luck, you have your hands full.
you’re so funny, its hard to read sort of sad posts like this one, when things are crummy for you. my soon to be 3yo is sort of a bastard like this, he doesnt care much about time outs, or taking toys away, or really even being sent to bed after all the screaming dies down. sometimes he co-operates and sometimes he doesnt. all i can do is try to keep him busy. my 4yo doesnt care much about any of these either, but sometimes he is sort of semi-reasonable. usually i rant and rave alot when i dont have my shit together, but the other 50% of the time i hop down on my knees and talk to him about how we are both feeling and what we are thinking, and we talk about a solution together, which is not usually appropriate or fair, so we agree to disagree, or i just walk away so i dont scream at him, and then i put in my mouthguard so my teeth arent permanently disfigured from grinding. time away from each other is usually best for us
4 year olds bounce between being beloved angels and little jerks. They’re smart and they’re wily. My 4 year old turned 5 today and I’m hoping beyond all hope we’ve left the crazy-humoured, foul-behavioured fours securely behind us. what are the chances of that? hang in there and i guess just be consistent – and know you’re not alone.
Oh and this works too: http://eggosforsupper.wordpress.com/2011/07/08/the-power-of-magnets/
Oh, I like that idea! I’ve tried sticker and reward charts and he doesn’t really care. He cares a little. So, do they start with all the magnets and you take them away for bad behaviors? Or do they start with none and you give them one for good things?
I am by no means an expert…but I am a mom and a teacher…and I do know from experience with even my hardest inner city kids is that rewards and behavior charts work wonders. If you have time, make a chart where L must earn two stars a day…one in the morning, one in the afternooon. If he makes ____ (insert #) of stars per week…there are rewards. You could even try 2 stars a day gets a reward if he needs that instant gratification. Obviously he is not responding to negative reinforcement…I would try the opposite. You have nothing to lose…the only thing I’ve learned from my city kids is that you have to be consistent with it because any lax and they walk all over you.
Oh, we went the whole gambit with our kid. Like yours, spanking didn’t really work because, well I guess *I* didn’t spank hard enough but in reality it just didn’t work for ours. Pinching worked for me, but I didn’t do it a whole lot, because I just don’t like that.
We tried taking away literally everything in his room except his bed and dresser, for a month. We donated (well, we made him put the toys in a box and walk them in to donate) his toys. For a while, that worked, but I would have to explain they were not going to some poor kids who had no toys (because then he would just give them ALL away – he’s good like that) but to his best friend or the worst bully, for some reason, he hated that idea. Go figure.
At one point, the hubby took a hammer and smashed one of his toys. The kid bawled his eyes out, for what felt like hours. But it was a while before he pulled any crap…The next time the kid pulled a stunt, he make the KID do it. (It’s hard for me, I get too upset) but the kid didn’t do it again at all after that…
Another favorite of the hubbys is shredding. The kids favorite Pokemon or Yugio (spelling?) cards. I just took his cards away (ALL of them) for the entire summer, for him lying to about how he “found” 2 cards while outside, when instead he got them from trading and he’s not allowed to trade without talking to us first.
Time outs worked the best, so has grounding. Where he has NO tv, video games, desserts, or anything. His room, books to read, and he has more chores to do when he’s grounded. So has my silence, I will not talk to him, period, until he calms down. Once he calms down, I will talk to him like he’s more grown up for his age (it helped boost his self worth issues – one of the reasons I found out he was coping an attitude with me…) and explain (sometimes over and over) what was wrong with what he did and how he made me feel. (yes, a little bit of guilt in that) and how NEXT time, I needed him to talk to me about what was really going on.
I read the book, 1-2-3 Magic and that helped me get my anger under control and it’s forced the kid to realize that if I get to 3, he’s in time out. Rinse and Repeat, until the message got stuck in his head. We started that when he was in K and it still works.
Good luck, kids are hard and frustrating (as much as they make our hearts swell with love) and hope you find something that works for yours soon!!
I wanted to let you know that I don’t have the talk back problem, but I have a kid who is not deterred by traditional means. And I still haven’t figured out what is going to work. I am with you on the spanking though. I really feel corporal punishment may just be something that makes us feel better, like we’ve remedied the situation.
I have found sitting down with my 4 year old and telling him that it hurts my feelings when does get a reaction (might only last for an hour). Where as yelling at him leaves him unfazed.
So only recommendation for now is tell him how it makes you feel. Because he loves you and doesn’t really want you to be upset. And pray? Yeah, pray that he’ll listen, for your sanity and eventually he will be a kind and well-adjusted being who isn’t intent on driving you crazy. Yep, that’s what I do!
Good luck!
I really like @eggsforsupper idea and may even try it out myself around here. I’ve got one of those that nothing seems to matter… at times I think he just enjoys the negative attention. My mother always said that negative attention is still attention….hhhmmmm. Anyway, just know you’re not alone. We all have one and none of us know what to do with him.
http://chosenchaos.blogspot.com/2011/08/take-me-by-surprise.html
As you just read this morning, Miss A is no longer my friend. Oh farking well. I hope I can survive the devastation.
The only thing i can think of is for you to ignore him. Like he’s not even saying it.
What about in front of other people? I’ve tried ignoring it but I feel like I’m on stage when he does it in front of other people and I have to respond appropriately. And what about when he does it TO other people? Like S, or his friends?
When Miss A does this, I calmly tell her “I am deliberately ignoring you because you are speaking rudely. I refuse to hear it.”
if she does it to her brother, I’ll say “WE are deliberately ignoring you…” and so on, and we’ll turn our backs on her.
When she says it to a friend, I tell them they deserve better than that, and they can ignore her because she is not treating them nicely. Then I tell her w’e are ignoring her….and so on.
Genius!
We handle it this way with our Little Man, too! He is mean to the Big Man ALL of the time, and we will say, “OK, WE don’t want to play with you any more today because you are too mean.” Then I will take the Big Man and play a game with him alone.
This mostly works for me, too. It must be the age (and maybe in the air) because my 4-year-old is doing this a lot lately as well. Most of the time (when I don’t just flip my lid), I calmly tell her. “That’s disrespectful. When you are done being mad, then I will talk with you.” usually it brings her around pretty quickly. Much as it saddens me to imagine it, her friends won’t want to interact with her either if she is mean (which I occasionally tell her) so that’s a natural consequence. Finally, and some weeks it’s really hard, I am a big believer in catching them being good. Praise and and all niceness like crazy. Hang in there!
As far as I can tell, every child goes through the “I hate you” stage. Some just don’t scare easily enough to get past it quickly. When my very stubborn, intelligent little boy went through this stage, we tried everything from spanking to time outs to taking things away. Honestly, the only thing that finally got through to him was when I reached my breaking point. As in, he broke me down and I sat on the couch and just started crying. I just couldn’t take it any more and snapped. He felt so bad that he had made me cry, that he stopped doing it. If your child is just a little sensitive to Mommy crying, it’ll have a huge impact.
He still talks back from time to time, after all, he is a child. When this happens, and things blow up, he gets an instant time out. As in, no lights, toys, books, laptop, etc. He has to lay on his bed, in the dark until he apologizes. Then, after things calm down and we’re back to normal, we talk about it. It works much better if he’s had something to eat and we’re doing something, like coloring, to talk about how his behavior is hurtful, inappropriate, mean, blah, blah, blah.
I’m not against spanking, but it doesn’t work with every child. It works with my younger son, but my oldest doesn’t even flinch. I hope you find something that works for both of you!
My daughter who just turned 4 had a major case of this a couple months ago. She is also a very active strong-willed child. I tried to break her (sorry charts but are you kidding me? Not working) and she just broke me. I didn’t cry but I just sort of gave up – I’d call it indifference to her behavior and she totally picked up on it and it freaked her out big time. Then I had a drink – sorry I make a lot of alcohol references but there are just developmental stages that call for it!
I think sibling jealously is also a factor. They will do anything – positive or negative – to get all of you back and so far this hasn’t changed much.
It will pass but yelling, as you already know, is useless and just escalates it all. I only know this because I screamed my head off for like 2 months.
I have also perfected “the look” which usually involves a clap and some chasing up to their rooms when she refuses.
Not fun!!
My 4 yr old called me stupid mommy from her room after I sent her for a time out. I stormed in there. She could hear the loud thumps of my footsteps. When I opened the door I must have had the look of death on my face because I said if you ever call me that again you will never leave your room. Stupid almost slipped out of her mouth days later and she stopped herself. Now that may not help you. I think I scared the death out of my kids because I can care less if they cry. They don’t see me react at all unless the tears are coming from pain such as a fall even then I can only sympathize so much. I feel so badly for you! I hope you find a solution soon. Motherhood is hard!!!!!!!!! That’s the understatement of a lifetime!
I told my kids I would put hot sauce in their mouths if they use bad words. – This does not prevent them from doing it, but when I hear them, I break out the bottle of Franks Red Hot and start yelling ‘do I need to put this in your mouth’!
My 5 year old daughter is worst. She’s frequently cries ‘I hate this whole family’…
If I thought spanking worked I’d be whacking my kids all day : )
This too, shall pass.
I have a friend who does the hot sauce thing. It works very well. She calls it “The Sauce” and uses whatever she has at the time (Franks, Tabasco, etc..) Whenever her kids start talking back and/or using bad words, she calmly asks “Do you need the sauce?” or tells them she is getting it. It took her putting a few drops (maybe 3 or so) on their tongue maybe 2-3 times and they stop instantly now. For a little while she had to carry a very small bottle of Tabasco in her purse. She said she never had to use that bottle, but her kids knew it was there, and that she would use it in public (I am assuming in a bathroom or car or somewhere private) if they missbehaved in public. Maybe that would work for L?
How unfortunate this would never work for my kid. He’s been eating spicy curries since he was a year old. It would have worked for my mom when I was little though.
My kid just melted down publicly at the doctor’s office and threw a $40 remote control car across the room. (Which he’d JUST gotten.) Yeah, I feel you, sister. Hang in– just keep loving them.
I just found your blog about a week ago and I LOVE it!!! I have a 6 yr old boy who talks to me the same exact way. I can’t tell you how many times I hear “stupid mommy”. It makes me feel better to know that I’m not the only one with a child like this. I have no idea about what to do with him. I’ve been in therapy trying to figure out how to handle him.
Love your blog!!
My boy is not that bad with me but man, does he have a smart mouth with his dad. He’s always saying things like “You no talk! I’m talking to Mommy right now!” And “Go Away!”
And very recently, copying something I say to him all the time, “Say it ONE time!” He unfortunately says this to his dad first thing in the mornings when he just comes in to say hello. He ignores him and then when daddy says “good morning” again, he yells, “Say it ONE time!”
I’m with you. I have no idea what will work.
When he starts being that rude to me, I’ll probably try and figure it out. ; )
http://www.toulouseandtonic.com
Honestly I think he needs a spanking. My daughter was this exact same way. We tried time outs, taking away objects, everything we could think of. The only thing that would get her to respect us was a spanking. I’m not talking about a slight tap on the butt or a beat down. Just something to make her cry for a maximum of five minutes. The threat of it changed things.
Just remembered something after reading some of these posts. I worked in a private school for a few months. As part of my position I helped during lunch time. We had one kid in Pre-K that was very difficult. When he got a punishment for behavior he just freaked out. So it didn’t work. What the teacher did was turn it around so that he missed out on rewards rather than getting a punishment. So I guess if S is good at the store and L is not, then S gets a reward and L doesn’t. No punishment but no reward either. This way you are also concentrating on the good stuff. This is really how the world works most of the time anyway.
Also, this way you might be able to get him to figure out his behavior is causing him to not get a reward. I guess this Pre-K kid just couldnt handle something being taken away but it was VERY effective when he had to see the other kids getting a reward but he didn’t.
Psychology 101 – Thorndike’s Law of Effect
(in my words) Behavior that is rewarded increases. Behavior that is not rewarded decreases.
The hard part is ignoring the bad behavior. That only works so far. You can go grab the kid when they take off but it’s hard to not pummel them for doing it.
This is a good idea. He does miss out regularly on things like dessert, but I don’t often reward S and not L, since S isn’t big enough to be asking for rewards. That would drive him CRAZY if I did.
Unexpected/unasked rewards can have a HUGE effect. Especially if they are random. Keeps them guessing. I suggest a book (if you have time) called Don’t Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor. It is not about dogs exactly. Its about learning theory and how it all works with the reward based system. Its VERY easy to read. You can even probably just read the first 3 chapters. They do talk about animals a lot but that is because all organisms learn the same way. You may have to “translate” a little for kids. I think you would find this very helpful.
I’d be a little wary of that approach though, because it could end up turning against S. In more ways than one – if he is antagonized by it, she may end up on the receiving end of his ire. If she is empowered by it, she’ll turn into a princess (and not the good kind).
I get the overall premis and see the merit, just proceed with caution if you go that route.
premise. grr
Oh.my.goodness. After reading your post, I think I must be married to a 4 year old boy. He has the exact same reasoning and view of “consequences”…just with a more sophisticated vocabulary.
I hope it’s just a phase for your sake, but just in case, maybe steer L toward very patient women when he is old enough to date.
this may or may not work, have you tried acting? We exaggerate our emotions. If my sons hits, we yell “ouch” and then act really sad.
Ohhh, I have some of the same fights with my 8y old daughter. Note Quite as bad, but quite as delicate. “So Mom – if you punish me by taking away my beloved XXX for a XXX time – HOW long would that actually be?” I answer… “Mom – thats completely OK with me – just go ahead.
Go ahead…” ARGHHHHH.
Here in Denmark physically punishing your child is illegal. WTF, gotta respect the laws, and so far i tried intensively reasoning in her room until she realised what my point was. Trust me – sometimes it’s a looong walk ;9
Good luck with your son <3
I have no advice for you, sorry. Just want to give you some encouragement. From what I read you’re a great mom. I have faith if you keep doing what you’re doing you will see results. Stay strong, don’t give up. Not that you would. Tell him your going to make him live with someone mean if he doesn’t stop acting up. Or not. That might make it worse.
I have a 2 yr. old daughter and I know the worst is yet to come. I think there is a huge difference between boys and girls. Her feelings get hurt when we yell, put her in time out or take something away.
I’m sure you dont have a whole lot of time for books, but John Rosemond’s Six Point Plan to Raising Healthy Happy Children is a great one. I had a class of 4yos with about 6 of them like how you describe L, and since I couldn’t beat them senseless, I had to try something. The book gives some great suggestions. My own son is shrieking at the table, finished with dinner, so more later
I do the passive aggressive guilt thing. It sort of makes him stop and think.
Son: “I hate you Mommy. I wish you weren’t my Mommy.”
Me: “Wow, that’s really sad because I like being your Mommy. Ok, well, I guess I can look for a new Mommy for you. It might take me a while. I’ll post something on my blog to see if there is anyone interested in being your Mommy. What color hair would you like her to have? Do you want her to be tall or short?”
Son: Thinks about it “No Mommy, I don’t want a different Mommy. I like you.”
Of course, there is always the off chance that he will quickly answer back “Brown and short please. And make sure she is a better cook.”
You asked for us to please tell you our kids are sometimes jerks too….well, I am here to say that yes, my kids are OFTEN jerks too. And you nailed it when you said they know they’re always going to be loved so they KNOW they can get away with it. My 4-year-old boy constantly yells at me when he can’t get his way, like have a Pop-Tart for dinner. And he’s impervious to time-outs or any other consequences at all. I put him up in his room and all I hear is screaming and pounding on the door…..until I put my earplugs in.
While there doesn’t seem to be a quick-fix for this one, at least you know we’re all suffering with you…..just in a different house somewhere!
I have a friend with very willfull children who made them marble jars. They get marbles each day for good behavior and they get one taken away for bad behavior. They sit in a central place in the house (and are relatively small for quick incentive). When the jar gets full, they get to have one of a pre-arranged couple of options (a movie with dad, out to lunch with mom – whatever is good for your family). This seemed to work well for her.
For me, busting out the fake tears usually still stops The Nugget from being mean to me! Don’t know how long that will last:)
Don’t worry, all of our kids are buttheads to us sometimes! Hugs!
I think I’ve tried everything (even the diet change) and I just have a kid that is determinded to have a nasty attitude.
The only thing I can say is to have a plan, any plan, of how to react when he does it. Most of the time it is so confusing, sudden, and shocking when my kid calls me a mean, mean woman that I don’t know how to respond. Just knowing what to do in that moment keeps me from choking him or leaving him in public place.
Lately, I’ve been putting him to bed 15 min. early per “event,” I tell him he’s obviously tired, and he’s making no sense. It’s nice, because when we have a particularly bad day, he goes to bed an hour early and I can start drinking. We both need it.
My nephew has a lose tongue. He is four and says a whole lot of four letter words he shouldn’t be saying. His mom got to stop saying those words…not by spanking….time outs were not working….took away all his toys…he didn’t care….so she told him to throw those words in the trash. Gave him a rag, let him say the word, wipe it off his mouth with the washcloth and throw it in the trash. When he hears someone say something mean or a bad word….he tells them they need to throw it away. Just an idea of something you may try.
That’s cute. Thanks for the idea!
Have I told you about my first “I hate you letter” ? He was 4 and I had scolded him and he was ticked. It said “I hat you” And it took every ounce of my self restraint not to launch into a lecture on the silent e.
But what I did say was that he could feel that way, but he couldn’t say it. And that I understood how hard it was to be angry at someone you love. And that while I would never stop loving him, I could absolutely take breaks from liking him. And that hurting people’s feelings – especially on purpose – was never oka so he could stay by himself until he was ready to be make things right. He sat in his room for over an hour. And then wrote me the following note: Deer mom. I love you this much (big heart)….but I still hat you this much (tiny heart). And you know, I was okay with that. I’ve hatted him that much in bad moments before, too.
I made him bite soap once. Took away the shock factor he thought he had on me.
But he’s 10 now and I’m not one to be too particular about specific words (pot-kettle); I care more about intent. And when he’s being ugly, I interrupt him and ask that he think carefully before he continues. When he is just being lazy and talking like a TV character, he straightens up quickly. When he’s truly being an ass, he continues, and I interrupt again to tell him to go away until he can be civilized. And he may stomp off and he may be all pissy, but he comes back later and is better. Is this a perfect, lasting solution? Yeah, I don’t have that kid. But it is getting better.
So I guess our key is that I tried not to give words power. And I let him have his feelings, just tried to teach him how to manage them appropriately. I have also never been afraid to pull the “because I’m the mom” card. (for things like if mommy can pinch, so can I) because you know what? It’s effin true. There are 6 zillion things a 38 year old can do that a 10 year old can’t. And it’s because we (generally speaking) know better. Deal. And yes, I would tell that to a 4 year old, too. Especially one who knows it’s true. You just have to be careful with the sarcasm in those moments because it can come out mean when it should just be matter of fact.
I also like Maggie’s suggestion of having a plan. And tell him what it is. Stick to it and let him know the ending is all up to him. Give him power for good, not evil
/book. Off to bed.
Meg, I love your response to your son’s “I hat you” letter! ( I would also have totally been right there with you on the spelling distraction.) I also kinda love your son’s response and I definitely love the fact that you accepted its reasonableness. My daughter is still just 4, but in my better moments, I, too, try to explain that she has every right to her feelings, but disrespectful words and behaviors will not be tolerated. When the infraction is particularly egregious, I require an apology. It’s hard to have my suspicion affirmed that we’ll probably still be dealing with this in 5 (or 10) years, but nice to know that the response still works.
Thanks. And please know that the attitude doesn’t have to last – my younger one has screamed the “I hate you” before but immediately dissolves into tears at the horror of what just came out of his mouth. He doesn’t need the conversation because he feels it innately, but he does need the forgiveness part. My older one is more impulsive and less intuitively aware of others – he needs the discussion & reinforcement every time, even though he understands cognitively, he doesn’t have the same emotional IQ so it’s a longer learning cycle. But he’s improving every year. Same rules, same expectations, different kids. And like all kids he has his strengths and his weaknesses it just so happens that the things we value in children are where his weaknesses lie, and his strenghts are more things that we appreciate in adults. So we teach & he grows, and hopefully there is a middle ground on the weaknesses while the strengths stay strong.
I have a 2 1/2 yr old boy who sounds very much like L’s earlier years. He can throw some pretty mean tantrums, but doesnt quite have the vocabulary to really hurt anyone’s feelings. Remember you are a good mom!! I have heard that spanked children are more prone to violence later in life (school fights and stuff, not necessarily a life of crime). I have cousins who were spanked and they physically fought a lot with each other in the teen years, while me and my sisters (who weren’t spanked) rarely had physical incidents. Know that you are doing the best you can and by not spanking, you are giving little S and L the ability to solve problems without hitting. Hang in there!!
I tried the hot sauce thing with my son and when he came out of his room he said “do you not love me anymore?” Broke my heart! So after that I went to vinegar….tastes bad but doesn’t burn. I kept a small spray bottle in my purse and they knew it was there….that worked. It is a fine line. For the most part you want to ignore him when he says things like that to you, however when he says it to other kids people would think you are crazy if you ignored it. I know you will find what works for you. L is a strong willed child and you are going to have to be very creative! Hugs.
I haven’t had to go through anything like this so I can’t speak from direct experience, but my son (I think he and L have the same birthday 3/7/07) in general is very rewards motivated. He will pretty much do anything for a bakugan. We haven’t had to use rewards to deter him from negative behavior, but we use it to encourage stuff like putting his clothes in the hamper and cleaning up his room, etc. He gets a sticker every time he does one of these tasks and after 25 he gets a bakugan. He makes sure that no good deed gets unnoticed so his sticker gets counted. You can try that instead of acknowledging negative behavior to encourage positive. So if he plays nice with S he get a sticker, versus punishing him for not being nice to her. Hope that helps!
We’ve tried positive rewards and he’s not interested in earning them, unless it’s the last one that gets him the reward. So, he’d ask “is it the 25th sticker?” and if not, he’d choose not to do the good deed. No amount of explaining that he had to get #s 1-24 first seemed to help. We also tried a small jar and filled it with arts and crafts pom poms. It led to him asking/crying for a pom pom for every single non-evil thing he did.
*raises hand* My kid’s a total d-bag! I got a call from his kindergarten teacher today (only his fifth day of school) that he hit her with a lunchbox, argued with her about going to the bathroom, and then told her, “Whatever. I am not going to listen to anything you tell me to do” and took off running when she tried to discipline him at school. He has now been marinating in his room with no toys, but plenty of school-type work, for the past 5 hours. I expect that he’ll be fluent in French by bedtime (oh! That’s now!) I also made him write an apology note for his teacher for Monday. I got out his lined paper, and I asked him, “Now, how do you think you made Miss Farley feel today?”
“Sad.”
“Does it make you feel happy to make Miss Farley sad?”
“No. I like her.”
“What do you want to say to Miss Farley to make it better?”
He told me what to write, and I wrote it with dotted lines and made him trace it and sign it. He said he was sorry he was rude and that he hit her with a lunchbox, and he promised to be better from then on.
Now, I’m hoping that works with his teacher. I know for a fact it wouldn’t work if it was ME he hurt. I’m pretty sure this kid hates me. I’m not his biological mama, but I do raise him. Before he started kindy on Monday, it was him and me, me and him, ten hours a day, and let me tell you, we’ve been dukin it out for years. He used to scream at me, call me names, SPIT.IN.MY.FACE, no freakin joke. Spit. In my FACE! I will tell you what stopped it, and stopped it cold: A teaspoon of vinegar. And I don’t hide it in public, either. I carry a baby spoon and a bottle of vinegar in my car, and he’ll have it anywhere, any place. In fact, I made him buy that himself with his allowance money. He was being an abusive little poopface to me one day, screaming at me, throwing shoes at me, calling me names, etc. We were in the car, and he threw his shoes at me. When we stopped at a light, I leaned back to take them from him, so he wouldn’t throw them again, and he spit on me and said, “Ha ha! You don’t have any vinegar, and you are driving, so I can do what I want!” I pulled into the nearest grocery store and walked him right in there (barefoot in the winter, too. No way in hell was he getting those shoes back to throw at me again.) I made him take his allowance money, buy a spoon and vinegar, and he took a spoonful of it in front of the whole damn store.
I tell you what. We haven’t had a day like that since.
This is effing long.
LOVE IT!! That’s the best punishment! I may have to borrow this.
How about teaching him new words to express other things besides “stupid mommy”? Perhaps his emotions are so strong, that’s the first thing that he has to blurt out. Sounds like a few adults I know too.
Anyways, if you tell him that it hurts your feelings, that he wouldn’t like to be called stupid either, that *might* sink in. Then if he learns to express himself in a more detailed way, like “I really don’t like what you’re doing mommy” instead of the easy-way-out “stupid”, he *might * give it a try.
Easier said than done, right? My baby doesn’t talk back to me… yet.
Well, just as he knows you love him no matter what, you must know that he loves you too, no matter what he says.
Good luck!
Karla
Oh, Allison, I completely sympathize with you and share your pain. My 4 year old is very defiant as well, and while she doesn’t say things like “I hate you” or “you’re stupid”, she does say similar things that I, too, find very disrespectful. When I tell her to go in time-out, she’ll scream, “no!” and run to her room. When I physically get up and put her in time-out myself, she’ll scream at the top of her lungs and demand for me to let her out, and while she’s in time-out, she’ll say mean things to get a rise out of me. She talks back like a 14 year old sometimes, and it is hurtful and it’s hard. I think to myself, where did I go wrong? Is this a result of my parenting, or is this just her personality?
I don’t think it makes you a bad parent. Clearly you aren’t encouraging this type of behavior, and you do give him consequences rather than letting it slide. My daughter actually says, “You still love me when I’m bad?” too when she’s in trouble, like right when I’m in the middle of scolding her – the same thing that your son does.
I feel equally as lost as you, and I hate that other parents are so judgmental. I’d love to see how they would handle my 4 year old. It’s so easy for others to judge and point fingers and say you’re a bad mom when they don’t have a child that does those things. It really is. Sometimes when my daughter is having a temper tantrum and is acting so unruly that I could just rip my hair out, I really do wonder how other parents might handle the situation.
I have no words of wisdom, just hugs! And reassurance that I’m sure that my daughter will be a jerk some day (she’s only nine months old right now). As a matter of fact, I kind of feel like she’s being one now… little miss take-a-nap-at-7:30p-so-I-can-stay-up-till-11p… Sigh…
My 4 year old and 2 1/2 year old both pitched the biggest fit the other day when we were in a store. Now I have heard the older one tell me he hates me and he doesn’t love me. But on this day he said the most awful thing I have heard come from his mouth….he said he was going to kill me. My first thought was where in the world did he learn that. He doesn’t watch things that talk like that and we definitely don’t talk that way in our house. My second thought was I was so embarrassed by all the people staring at me. I carried them both out of the store kicking and screaming. When my husband got home he sent him to his room to think about his behavior ( I couldn’t at the time think of a punishment worthy of what he had said to me). We left him up there for a considerable amount of time.
When my husband did go to talk to him, my son instantly started crying when they talked about what the words he said actually meant. For my son, this “talk” was way more productive than a spanking or removal of privileges.
Like Arizona Mom commented, my son knows that I still love him. When he or his brother gets in trouble, his first response lately has been, “You always love us, you just don’t like our behavior, right?” Well kid, yeah, you are exactly right. It’s tough raising kids and I feel like I fail everyday. Your post, and other people’s comments make me realize I am not alone. Which is refreshing.
I stumbled across your blog somehow after googling “speech delay” about my 3 year old (all while freaking out that he will never talk normally) and got lost reading your posts. As a mom of 3 I could completely relate. Thanks for the laughs in a moment of freak out.
Here comes yet another suggestion from someone who doesn’t have kids yet… so of course, I must know everything there is to know about raising them, right?
Ok, so the sarcasm isn’t exactly constructive…
Anyway. My nephew went through the “I hate you” phase when he was 2-3. He came into my room one day, got pissed off, and told me that he hated me. I told him that I hated him right back, and when he tried to stay in my room, I asked why he wanted to be there if he hated me. I never heard those dreaded three words out of his mouth again.
I think that kids just need to be shown how much their words can hurt. Whether they say it to a parent, a sibling, or a friend, they need to know that the hurtful things they say have an effect. The shock of hearing “I hate you right back” will either stun them into silence or finance their future therapist’s Porsche.
I also like the vinegar/hot sauce suggestions… may I recommend Blazin’ sauce from Buffalo Wild Wings? That shit is HOT.
My twins are two.
At the rate its going now, by the time they hit four, I’m in trouble.
I am been reading your blog for about a month now and some of the posts just make me laugh until I cry. Some bring back memories of younger days.
I have nine children, a couple grown, most still in the house, some still very young. I still am trying to figure everything out. I read this last week and kept thinking about it over the weekend, and decided to try to give my take. None of my children told me they hated me until they were teenagers (and that was just the one, she is a firecracker) and I do think I would have had a royal freakout if they did. Kids know where your boundaries are, and what they absolutely will not in any circumstances get away wtih. No use trying to artifically create those boundaries, they know what actually comes from your core. I am a very mild mannered mom, but from a southern background. Talking that way would make my head spin around and they know it. I have found that other moms have other buttons. Maybe it would have been better if my button had been making messes, but you play the hand you are dealt.
one thing that worked well for me, and it is hard to do, i will admit, I have yet to become perfectly consistent at this, is to be nothing but positive. Anything negative gets no reaction. Again, you cannot be faking it, they will see right through that. They know the difference between no reaction and “I am mad and just not speaking to you”. L seems like a very very bright, verbal child who will grow into someone very in touch with his emotions so i think this might work for him. Anything good he does, praise him. Not effusively, but sincerely and the appropriate amount for whatever he did. if he does something wrong, react but non emotionally. LIke if he pinches his sister, say “that is against the rules, I think you know that” and then comfort S. Again, not effusively, but sincerely. ” Sorry S, i know that hurt, let me see.” Any punishments that are done should be done with no anger. No emotion. if it is something minor that can be simply ignored, do it. It sounds like he is feeding off your reactions, so don’t give him one. and he is smart, so he will be able to tell! if you feel unable to do that, give yourself a time out! lol “L, Mommy is feeling upset. It has been a rough morning. I am going to my room to be alone”. Go to room and shut the door. Time outs are fun either way once you are a mom. Whether it is them or you getting them, you have peace either way! lol But the most important side of this whole thing, is to react positively. Let him feed on that, rather than the negative reactions.
Another thing, is to maybe share your emotions honestly with him. like the other day, with your outing when you had to leave because S was sick. i cannot remember, you may have done this, but you could say something like “L, i had so much fun with you, did you have fun? I am sorry we are having to leave early, S is feelling sick. I am a little worried about her. We need to go get her and help her feel better. Remember when I took care of you when you were sick? let’s do that for S”. I mean, he is only four. And very emotional. i think he just needs help finding those boundaries between expressing strong feelings and being sensitive. he does not know how to express his own feelings and frame other peoples yet. but he will. i think he is going to grow into a good kid.
This seems like great advice. I’m a very emotional person (wonder where L gets it?) so being non-reactive is a HUGE challenge for me. He totally behaves better when I manage it though. 9 kids???? Holy crap!
You are so right about kids knowing where your boundaries lie. Mine have never ripped up books. Books are sacred to me, and they somehow knew that early one. Small thing, I know, but it always surprised people that they had “real” books accessible at an early age.
Anyway, largely off topic, but just wanted to chime in about the boundaries. I think that as a sarcastic household (not necessarily the best trait, I know) the language boundary is a lot harder to define so therefore it’s a lot harder for the kids to toe.
My situation is a bit different…our daughter is 6 1/2, been with us 8 months and was adopted from China. She tells me “Mommy you not take care of me” or “Mommy you not like me” when she doesn’t get her own way. She is getting more defiant as of late, I suppose because she feels more secure and knows we love her. The hubs spanks her occasionally…if I do she smirks at me. The only thing that works for me is to either take away something special or….Threaten to tell her Daddy she has misbehaved.
Crap. I have a jerk twin right now. But a few months ago it was the other one who was a hitting, screaming jerk. It passed for her and I’m hoping this one will get over it, too.
I have no sage advice. No clue how to get my kids to stop doing things I can’t control. I just keep trying and I’m afraid that’s the boat you’re in, too.
Maybe a permanent removal of something? A toy or privilege he can never get back? I’ve been known to toss toys right in the garbage. Not sure how effective that is in the short term, but I always hope it will have a lasting impression.
Wow, Stephanie! Your advice is awesome. I’m making a mental note of your technique for my challenges in discipline. Hope you start a parenting blog!
I know you’ve received lots of comments, but I wanted to chime in. At the insistence of a friend who teaches in a city school for kids with big issues, I am reading “The Difficult Child.” So far, I think it’s a really great strategy for all kinds of challenging behaviors. I’ll give you a quick version of the most helpful bits in this situation.
Don’t give your energy to negative behavior. For some reason that phrasing really clicked with me. I’d been losing my temper a lot with my recently-turned-4-year-old. With this new strategy, I minimally acknowledge her comments, either “That’s not a nice thing to say” or “that hurts my feelings.” Then I move on with whatever we were doing.
The flip side is to notice the child more. This is not to say you aren’t giving him enough attention. It just means letting the child know you are noticing them for behaviors throughout the day. This is supposed to be more subtle than praise and get the child to understand the behaviors we like. So, my daughter’s been coloring for 2 minutes without interrupting me about something, so I say, “You’re really focusing on coloring your picture” or “I see you chose to use a lot of brown.” My little one can be bad at accepting compliments. This noticing seems to slip in under her radar and so she doesn’t protest.
I’m not professing these are magic cures, but in the few weeks I’ve been trying them, they’re helping.
No matter what techniques you try, I know it’s hard, sometimes motherhood sucks, and I want to come over and give you a hug!
My son went through a really bad stage from pre-k all the way through kindergarten. He was really good at home, but horrible anywhere else. It was so bad that his preschool teacher videotaped him standing up dancing on his mat refusing to take a nap during naptime, burned it to a dvd and showed it to my husband when he picked him up that evening because she thought we didn’t believe her. At the time we were soooo mortified and felt about an inch tall. Then in kindergarten he would refuse to write during reading and writing and would repeatedly break his pencil lead and throw temper tantrums, so his teacher (who probably was not the best kindergarten teacher I might add) wrote him up for destruction of school property for breaking the lead of a pencil that we bought him! Wtf! We tried everything we could think of to make him behave at school, but he grew out of on his own and by the time he started 1st grade he was perfectly normal and we haven’t had any problems since. Sometimes kids come around in their own time, but I feel your pain!
http://www.thewilyweez.blogspot.com
My son gives me the “you are mean to me, so I am mean to you” it drives me nuts!!!! And if we get upset with him he goes and pull the “nobody likes me” card! I have no idea what to do or say back to him!
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Anytime my kids yell at me, they get “yucky juice” (aka apple cider vinegar). It works really well for me 2.5 and 4.5 year old boys. My older son only told me once “I hate you” and I’m confident he will never do it again. That kind of talk is just not tolerated here. The vinegar works well for us, but I also follow up with removal of privileges. My 4.5 year old lost all screen time (TV, Computer) for 3 days after he said he hated me. Every single time he asked me to watch TV for those three days, I reminded him of his offense. See, I think the thing is he had no idea how hurtful and severe those words were until he went through the consequences. Now he knows. I have also been known to wash his mouth out with soap when he gets a yucky mouth. Know that your 4 year old is totally normal, but know you are the parent, and while you may not be able to make him stop saying hurtful things, you CAN make the consequences so severe that he won’t want to.
One of my boys was kind of a raging nightmare when he was younger. I would say he started to improve when he was about seven. He can still be mean, but he really regrets it now, and tries very hard to be good. Managing his emotions has always been his weak area – I honestly think his feelings scare him. He needs to feel in control, and his strong feelings can make him feel very out of control.
He is eleven now, and I try to help him see the signs of anger before it goes too far. I tell him what I hear in his voice, and what I see in his body language; I suggest that maybe he should take a break from the activity that is making him feel frustrated.
Obviously this won’t work with a four year old, but if you see your son in my description it might give you an idea of how he might change as he matures.
This is a great way to describe it. I often say that L’s emotions seem bigger than other people’s. When he’s excited he’s more excited than other kids, when mad he’s more mad. It does seem like he can’t control the emotions and it might scare him a little. When he’s being mean and out of control, he seems almost possessed. Same when he’s overly excited. It’s like something has come over him that he just can’t control. Managing his big emotions will certainly be a challenge for him and I hope I can help him as well as you seem to have helped your son!
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My son is now 15, and throughout his life, no traditional carrot-and-stick things have ever worked for him. Punishment, loss of privileges, any negative consequences just make him angry, resistant, and determined. And he is as stubborn as they come. Physical punishment? Forget it. Like pouring gas on a fire. Rewards, compliments, etc. make him feel patronize and resentful, which make him less likely to repeat the desired behavior.
Parenting a child like this is frustrating beyond description especially because so many people are just chomping at the bit to tell you exactly what you’re doing wrong/what you should be doing instead/how no kid of theirs would ever get away with such/blah blah blah. The underlying message from these people (whether well-meaning or not) is always, “This is somehow YOUR fault, Mom.”
I’m sorry. I wish I had some inspirational advice, but instead all I can offer is assurance that you are not alone. Hang in there. I have found the less reactive I am, the better for both of us — positive or negative.
I just discovered your blog and I feel like we are soul sisters. My 6 year old used to be this way ALL THE TIME and can sometimes STILL be this way. She’s never been one to care about punishments.
Lately when she tells me that she hates me, etc, I just say, “OK…I’ll remember that when you want me to cuddle with you tonight. Why would you want to cuddle with someone you hate?” Then she’s all about the sorry.
Sounds to me like your guy is super intelligent. Maybe he is gifted… The gifted resource teacher at school says that gifted children are “too everything”: too intense, too sensitive, too driven, too honest, too into their own interests. She also said that gifted children see the world differently because of “the complexity of their thought processes and their emotional intensity.” ;0)
Hang in there. You’re human and this won’t last forever. This sounds crazy, but have his pediatrician check his tonsils. Seriously. Large tonsils often cause really poor sleep and thus very cranky kids. I speak from experience. She was rarely sick, but she snored like a trucker. This child was difficult and had multiple meltdowns a day. She is a different child now. I spoke with other mothers whose children went through similar personality changes after a tonsillectomy. One said her daughter had been diagnosed as ADD and a “behavior problem” at school but it all changed when she got her tonsils out and thus slept well for a change. Our pediatrician consistently missed her enormous tonsils until we specifically asked him about it, and only then realized how large they were, so perhaps start with an ENT.
Another thought: are his punishments unpleasant enough for him? What works in our house is standing in the corner. They have to stand, nose to the corner, and be quiet and still. They quickly get very bored and feel left out. Sometimes they don’t seem to mind it as much but I keep them there until they ask to be let out…and then I make them stay a little longer. Their rooms are too fun for them, and just sitting in time out wasn’t unpleasant enough.
Best of luck. Hang in there. You’re fighting the good fight.
I have a 6 year old so similar. Children’s books that I really recommend to read together are “Why Do You Love Me” by Laura Schlessinger (great book even if you don’t like the author) and “Harriet You’ll Drive Me Wild” by Mem Fox. 1-2-3 Magic works if you can keep yourself under control which is really difficult for me. My 6 year old is just like me. I love the idea of putting myself in time out. I hate yelling and spanking only backfires. We seem to do well, get a bad behavior improved then lighten up and go back to square 1. I understand and believe in consistency but it is EXHAUSTING! Every day I just pray to do better.
I have been catching up since I was referred to this blog from a friend. And soo much of your lifestyle, stories of your children, and battles of a mother reminds me of my whole situation here. I have three kids aging from three to nine months old. My oldest has delayed speech and that’s partially because he regressed when my youngest was born and partially due to some unknown reason that I’d love to figure out and switch back. Now, with that said, some of the battles you’ve had with your son I’ve had with mine. I do honestly believe (and I’ve said it myself, then think “wait that has happened) that people who say “That wouldn’t fly at my house” are judging you and in turn themselves. I think we all feel guilty for behaviors we feel like we’ve let happen. Even though as you’ve stated numerous times, we can’t control how they behave in reality. They’re their own person and they either respond to punishment and act right or they don’t. Unfortunately some kids just don’t. I have tried everything, month long trials, and honestly there are very few things my oldest responds to. He is the type that once the immediate effect wears off (usually with a good 20-30 minute tantrum) he acts as though he was never punished to begin with. That to me is more infuriating then the problem itself, is the blatant disrespect towards authority and the punishment given. I don’t have an answer for you in regards to your son, unfortunately, as I am still trying to figure out this whole parenting thing on my own. I am a stubborn, prideful person who HATES admitting that I don’t have it under control and sometimes brush off people’s advice out of pure arrogance trying to play it off like I do have it under control. (Yea, I don’t) Reading your blog has honestly made me laugh and cringe at the same time. Reliving moments I’ve had in my own experiences. Some I’d rather forget and some that are supposed to be teaching moments that again my pride gets a hold of a throws out the proverbial window.
With that said, I do believe that every child has a ‘trick’. Just like a dog to a treat. Finding that trick is sometimes like finding the straw of hay in a stack of needles, but when found it’s a beautiful thing. So I guess what I’m getting at is, this one little piece of advice I can share. Some children respond better to handing situations without words. “John, it’s time to go to your room and draw in your journal for a while.” or something of that nature. I can see all of the holistic, baby wearing, co-sleeping mothers who would rather encourage praise over punishment agreeing to this. (Who I am at heart, but am soo not by convenience) He may just be the child that needs a creative outlet that is only his to express himself rather then to be reasoned with or reprimanded verbally.
Now, I am no expert, I am no mothering god (Well, in reality I’m not, but my pride says otherwise), so I can only give a speculative guess and hope that in some way it helps opens doors to a solution.
All the best!
Several months later, I’m reading through your backlog laughing, nodding and commiserating. My older daughter was a dream child. My 2 year old has a hat I call a warning label “Little Monster”.
I’ve been reading a lot of positive parenting blogs so I don’t wind up my mother, having rages at me and I wind up feeling like hell, and then she apologizes and I’m supposed to forget the rage ever happened.
Ahaparenting is my favorite site. Not much has sunk in yet, but I’m hoping that I can be calmer.